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beau-jolly
offlineMember
To avoid the debate starting in t'other room, what is the solution?
Arming teachers sounds (and is) mad but does anyone have a better idea? Guns are out there and you can not put the toothpaste back in the tube. Bad (wo)men will always get their hands on weapons.
All the reports ranked the recent horror as number 2 on a chart. I can't help thinking a new nutter will set out just to claim the record.
Anyone got an answer? Rikkor? No? Ah well. Back to normal then.
The All New Jeni B
offlineMember
I'd rather see the bears with arms to be honest.
There's been a thing doing the FB rounds attributed to Morgan Freeman, in which he says something along the lines of we should stop giving media attention to the perpetrators of such horrific attacks. Many of those, if not all, who have conducted these shootings have had mental illness in one form or another, often with a desire for fame/infamy.
By NOT giving them media attention, the impetus might be lessened, and the desire, as bj says, to beat the 'record' will be reduced.
I understand that the right to bear arms is hardwired into much of the American psyche, and that it is very unlikely that any politician will ever have the courage to campaign to have all privately owned weapons banned, but surely the availability of weapons is part of the problem?
And wtf are assault weapons permitted in so many states? Who in civilian life has any need for such a thing?!
Gerontius
offlineMember
The sad truth is we live in a world where people find this sort of thing entertaining.
This will attract more hits on the internet than any other news-story ....for a week or so.
Not out of compassion...but out of morbid fascination.
Then it's on to some other more recent, more entertaining news story in the global goldfish bowl.
Can you imagine the salivating going on in the US media.
Their whole reason for existence depends on stories like this.
Let's face it, they would rather see more of this sort of thing rather than have any effective gun control.
They would much rather see some nut-job on a killing spree than a spending spree in their local mall.
Typhoon Bopha.....over 1000 casualties and rising....not so much as a grainy bit of footage shot on a phone-camera.
Not sexy enough.
Ironduke
offlineMember
I believe when England conquered Scotland they removed the right to bear arms, wear highland dress, speak Gaelic from the inhabitants. A standard part of subjugating the population; hence the enshrinement in the American Declaration of Independence document the right for all citizens to bear arms. Resistance to renovation stems in part from sensitivity to the erosion of Independence.
Unfortunately, as with slavish adherence to the letter of ancient religious texts resulting in nonsense about who can and cannot sleep with who, eat what, wear what and marry ...the slavish adherence to this document causes very bad things to happen in our new, policed world where individuals simply do not need guns and our nation shows on balance, no guns = more safer.
Armed teachers in classrooms would cause more killings, as either teachers go nuts or kids steal weapons. Unfortunately, removal of guns in America would cause even more as nutjobs bunkered themselves in rather than handover firearms.
No answers; just sadness.
Sinnick
offlineMember
Nutters with guns and motive, mostly in the US. If the solution were simple it would have been done.
I don't think it's anything to do with publicity; folk with this intent are really unaware of anything outside their own immediacy.
And I don't think removing, revising or reinterpreting the 2nd amendment is going to happen in the near or distant future. The Amendment was instigated so that people could protect themselves in dangerous times - hardly relevant today (mostly)
But there are things that could be done to reduce the frequency of these hideous events, not just in the US. And, yes, I know some of these are a little trite:
- understanding extreme mental conditions; making it Ok to admit to them, discuss them etc with professionals - before they get that bad. Talking reduces problems.
- given that owning guns will remain legal: in Federal law, remove all but simple hunting guns from sale or possession; compensate hand-ins; provide severe restrictions on storage and access; make vast increases in penalties for offences. Prosecute organisations that flaunt these new laws. This doesn't have to be done in a single step, but it would help
Psycadelic Squirrel
offlineMember
It was a terrible tradgedy and unfortunately this will happen again. Whether in a school, a mall or at a workplace because the employee has had enough of something.
Americans are fiercely proud of their right to have weapons but a line must be drawn somewhere. A handgun is proportionate, an assault rifle is not. Canada is full of guns but you never see reports of such things from there.
As for the typhoon I am on a ship with many Filipinos and they cannot understand why we do not have more coverage of what happened. 'Superstorm' Sandy had blanket coverage for days, unfortunately the Far East is still too far away for many people to care.
The All New Jeni B
offlineMember
I've had a look at the BBC news site, and unless you specifically look on the Asia pages, there is no mention of the typhoon at all.
Yes, the unnecessary and pointless slaughter of young children is horrendous and always will be, but thousands are dead in the Phillippine's, and there's nothing.
AReader
offlineMember
I think there's a difference between a natural disaster which killed thousands and the deliberate shooting of 6 and 7 year olds by a mad man.
I have no objection to the 2nd Amendment per se, except that it appears to arm the criminal and the insane disproportionately. Convince me that you can keep guns from falling in the hands of those two groups, and I'd support it.
Al OPecia
offlineMember
The 2nd Amendment was enacted so that adult males could form a militia in each State to guard against Fedreal Government (built in paranioa).
The current twisted logic being employed by the various gun lobbies in the US at the moment are incredible (literally) - one moron on BBC R4 this morning said something along the lines of most of these killings were carried out by the mentally ill, so lets ban the mentally ill, rather than guns.
We live in fear of our government apparantly, whenever I bring the statistics up - last year 51 gun related deaths (i.e. over half of those were accidents) in the US 30,000 - of these 22,000 were accidents.
Whenever I post this on blogs in the US I get dog's abuse, - it's as if I had suggested that climate change caused by humans was real.
AReader
offlineMember
Whenever I post this on blogs in the US I get dog's abuse, - it's as if I had suggested that climate change caused by humans was real.
Funny, I thought it was you giving the abuse, but still...
The current twisted logic being employed by the various gun lobbies in the US at the moment are incredible (literally) - one moron on BBC R4 this morning said something along the lines of most of these killings were carried out by the mentally ill, so lets ban the mentally ill, rather than guns.
This has already reached the courts in (where else?) Texas, where a man suffering from schizophrenia argued that he was still entitled under the constitution to defend himself. AND WON.
The most fun is had by gun shop owners who report that some customers buy a new gun every time the President does something they don't like (like get re-elected, for example).
I wouldn't be surprised if the NRA blamed the school for not arming the teachers.
Al, you have to look at these things in perspective. The USA is much bigger than the UK with a much higher population, so you would expect them to have more gun-related deaths than us.
51 in the UK, with a population of around 63 million. So 30,000 in the USA would translate to a population of about 37 billion, which sounds about right, it’s a pretty big place after all.
So proportionately they have no more of a problem than us, but you don’t see people calling for tighter gun laws in the UK do you?
beau-jolly
offlineMember
Hmmm! Someone else on the wireless the other day suggested that its a bigger problem in the USA than in the UK because we have the NHS so can get help with mental illness. It may be true that in the USA if you have mental health issues and no insurance you will not get any help and may end up killing someone. I can't help thinking though that easy access to weapons of mass killing has something to do with it.
There is also a strange issue with the constitution. If the 2nd ammendment is there for states to defend themselves against a federal government why have they stuck with guns (which are a bit outdated) and not updated it to more effective WMDs? (Sorry that should probably be WsMD)
Midfield Diamond
offlineMember
I used to go to Phoenix with work to do a series of tests at a disused airfield. At one end of the airfield was a pile of assorted dumped stuff like old tyres, fridges, mattresses, etc. On our arrival one morning, there was a bloke with a rifle shooting at the pile of junk - at 6am. Us Brits were horrified and suggested calling the police to get this nutter put away where he couldn't do anyone any harm. Our hosts thought nothing of it at all, in fact they considered it to be quite normal behaviour, just a bit of target practice. Which made us worry about it even more.
I may be simplifying things slightly here but wouldn't stricter control of ammunition be a step in the right direction? Those who want to take up their constitutional right to bear arms can do so with a few rounds to help them defend their property and themselves. They would be unaffected. Those who want to blast the hell out of road signs or cacti or piles of rubbish first thing in the morning, or fellow human beings if they felt a bit funny one day, would find things more difficult.
Unfortunately, this 'right to bear arms' has become in some people's eyes the 'right to develop an arsenal to rival that of a third world country and go out and shoot at stuff cos it's fun' which I'm not sure was the intention of the constitution.
Ironduke
offlineMember
Al- re: caller saying most of these cases arise from mentally ill people
Clearly 'banning' is ridiculous, but 'proactively identifying, treating and supporting' is far from ridiculous.
In this case it seemed clear to all around this young man that he had issues / was disturbed; and yet he was living with a whacko survivalist mother holding a military arsenal and without other apparent support.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if this was a drama it would be criticised for an obvious, heavily telegraphed plot and perhaps alongside gun control, debate about increased investment in a higher standard of mental care for the good of the individual and the protection of the public should be warranted.
beau-jolly
offlineMember
"Guns don't kill, bullets do!"
MD I think you have cracked it! Allow guns but ban bullets.
They can practice by ramming the barrel of the gun into a potato.
waylandsmithy
offlineMember
For technical reasons, banning ammo is a waste of time. It's really, really easy to make at home. Guns are much harder.
Guns are only a problem in the hands of criminals. Banning them would automatically make anybody in possession of a gun a criminal, which is exactly what you're trying to avoid.
The All New Jeni B
offlineMember
I've got it!!!
Ban Americans, simple.
(Except you, of course Rikkor.)
Al OPecia
offlineMember
VCG that's why banning them makes it easier to enforce - if you have a hand gun or assault rifle you are a criminal, and that is exactly how it should be, and is in the UK. I thought the USA was the "can do" nation - or are regular school massacres a prce worth paying for "freedom"?
sigmund
offlineMember
Little known historical fact; the constitution was drafted on a hot, humid summer’s day. Some of the delegates wanted to take off their jackets and roll up their shirt sleeves, others were fiercely opposed to this lack of decorum. The guys with the bare arms won the vote, but sadly, couldn’t spell. The rest is a tragedy of history.
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