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If you're undecided, why vote? It's not compulsory.

(28 posts) (14 voices)

Started 4 years ago by Titus
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Titus

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Would be a shame if the vote of someone who had done a lot of research, given it a lot of thought and who passionately supported one side was swamped by two votes from a couple of people who either couldn't make up their minds, or who didn't really give a toss either way, but who more-or-less just flipped a coin and ended up voting the other way.

Why do so many undecided people in this referendum think they have to vote? Lots of people, even those who have strong political opinions, don't bother to vote in general elections.

Is it perhaps because in a general election, in many constituencies, the result is a foregone conclusion?

Or has this referendum provoked greater voter interest because the there is actual cross-party / inter-party debate and people can't just follow their traditional standard knee-jerk party political affiliations?

Posted 4 years ago #
Ref Minor

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Lol, desperate somewhat?

Posted 4 years ago #
deceangli

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Titus, that's an odd opinion. Usually we're bemoaning low turnouts in elections. If tomorrow has a good turnout, are you seriously suggesting that people who aren't hugely polarised should step aside?

It's democracy. We know it's a bit crap, but it's a good sort of crap.

Posted 4 years ago #
Al OPecia

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Titus/Sockpuppet knows that "Undecideds" tend to vote for the status quo when confronted with the Ballot Paper (insert Ancient Brit Rock Group Joke here) that's why he'd rather they didn't turn out.

Ad extremum in perditis indeed.

Pedicabo eam Masturbator

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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This isn't about one side or the other.

It is a comment on the fact that in general elections, we hear people ranting on furiously about the merits of "their" side and the evils of "those bastards on the other side", yet turnout is often low. I would guess that there are probably more people who care strongly but who (for some weird reason) don't vote, than there are people who don't vote because they are undecided.

This in contrast to the forthcoming referendum, where I have heard countless people say they are undecided (almost as many who say their minds are made up!) yet I have never heard a single person say that, because they are undecided, they might not cast a vote. Instead, they say "I might have to make my decision while I'm in the polling booth" - never "I might not enter the polling booth".

If they mean what they say, that they will definitley vote even if they have a real struggle deciding which way, then this is of course good news for a healthy democracy. But I would love to know why the situation is so utterly different from that of a general election.

Maybe it isn't? Maybe all these 'undecided' people were talking bollocks and actually won't bother to vote? It will be fascinating to see!

Posted 4 years ago #
Al OPecia

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This isn't about one side or the other.

Er ... yes it is. That ship has sailed, my old reactionary sockpuppet.

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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Have you managed to make your mind up yet, Al?

Posted 4 years ago #
Ironduke

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Perhaps an element that used to vote monster raving, or if they were really extreme, Lib Dem or UKIP...the good old fashioned protest vote or effective 'none of the above', or spoil their ballot paper.

In a referendum it's a two-horse race so nowhere else to go, but maybe in all elections there are those wavering undecided, they just have a different outlet to select in multi-candidate elections.

Posted 4 years ago #
Gary Baldy

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I agree with Titus/Sockpuppet/Tom Baker/David Tennant/Peter Capaldi, or whatever guise he's in these days, but for entirely different reasons.

Firstly,
Why do so many undecided people in this referendum think they have to vote? Lots of people, even those who have strong political opinions, don't bother to vote in general elections.
this is a bit of an odd statement: maybe people are more interested in the UK's situation within the EU than who they want in parliament. Maybe people with strong political opinions don't have their opinions in line with any of the mainstream parties, and feel they are unable to vote for any of them because none of them represent their opinions. The assumption that people who don't vote are because they simply can't decide when given a choice, no matter what the choice is, is an illogical conclusion to draw from such information.

Now my thoughts... I told my family I was probably not going to vote either way, and just spoil my ballot, because there are pros and cons of both staying and leaving, and they probably work out reasonably equally either way. The response I got was "just choose one, you have to vote because it's important", as if choosing almost at random is better than not choosing at all. I do care, but I don't mind, and it would be far more irrational to just randomly put a cross in a box than to just leave the ballot paper blank.

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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"just choose one, you have to vote because it's important", as if choosing almost at random is better than not choosing at all. I do care, but I don't mind, and it would be far more irrational to just randomly put a cross in a box than to just leave the ballot paper blank.

Exactly so - you put it more clearly than I managed to. I have heard countless people say "I'm finding it really difficult to decide which way I'm going to vote" as though it were compulsory. If I couldn't make up my mind, I wouldn't vote. (But I certainly wouldn't waste my shoe leather walking to the polling station simply to spoil my paper. The only time I would do that would be if they tried to make voting compulsory.)

I declined to vote for a police commissioner, and I did indeed spoil my paper in one election where there was a only a party list, and I wrote "VOCAN - NOPAR. Vote for a candidate, not for a party".

Posted 4 years ago #
Pabst Blue Ribbon

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If you're undecided, maybe because you've never really thought about it much and the "debate" was a bit hard to make sense of with all the shouting and posturing, maybe "remain" gives you a few years to take an interest in the EU and make a decision next time.
If UK leaves, then there it's less likely there'll be a next time.

In general elections you can always tell yourself you'll vote in the next one, but this referendum might seem a bit final.

So undecideds should vote remain to buy themselves some more time.

The timing of this referendum was a bit arbitrary and triggered by a series of Conservative party internal issues, so there's no shame in wanting to defer.

Posted 4 years ago #
Sinnick

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Extending Titus's point a little, maybe there should be a little intelligence test before a potential voter is handed his voting paper:

1) Add up 3 simple numbers
2) Spell "democracy" (trick question)
3) Give 1 reason for leaving Europe that doesn't include the words "hate" and "foreigner"

Posted 4 years ago #
Sinnick

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Titus, you've mentioned "countless" twice now. Perhaps learning how to count might be a good idea ?

" I have heard countless people say they are undecided"

Have you considered the possibility that they don't want to tell you, because they know what happens next, and they don't want their lives shortened further ?

Posted 4 years ago #
101010

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Give 1 reason for leaving Europe that doesn't include the words "hate" and "foreigner"

Have you not heard the elaborate formulations for getting round that? I prefer the straight up racists, at least they don't spend ten minutes pretending that they aren't.

Posted 4 years ago #
S J Roe

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I suppose you've got a point, Titus. People say that there is a duty to vote, but I think there is a duty to seriously consider the issues and if undecided to not bother.

Whoever said that undecided people remain with the status quo are dead right-this applies to anything in life not just this election.

But then, to be cynical, the brexiteers know this full well.

On a separate note I think people here tend to be pretty political but I am surprised at the emotions this is stirring up in people who do not tend to be-it's quite divisive-heated arguments between people in the pub, work who are not normally political.

I'll say here that I am remain because hopefully if I ever do meet any of you, it will be forgotten (!) but not in 'real life' -no point arguing when you have already decided.

More divisive then the general election strangely-maybe because it has more direct consequences?

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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Have you considered the possibility that they don't want to tell you

They weren't talking to me, mostly they were speaking (often during the course of an extended, in-depth programme) to a radio or TV presenter or interviewer. None of them showed any unwillingness or hesitataion in describing, at great length, just how undecided they were.

Posted 4 years ago #
Gerontius

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Why should anybody bother to vote.
Do you honestly think you will get to decide the outcome?
Big Business, the Banks, City Suits, the millionaires, the billionaires....they all want to stay
So...do you really think they will let you decide?
The little people?

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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"remain" gives you a few years to take an interest in the EU and make a decision next time.
If UK leaves, then there it's less likely there'll be a next time.

That is the opposite of what most people seem to think: that, as part of the EU, we were very lucky to be allowed a vote at all (This one was probably a mistake: the result of a miscalculation by Cameron or others, who seriously underestimated the size of any possible "out" vote) and if we stay in, that is it, and we will obediently have to do what we are told by our EU masters in future.

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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Give 1 reason for leaving Europe that doesn't include the words "hate" and "foreigner"

That is not the choice we are being offered.

Leaving the control of the lumbering, undemocratic EU government is not "leaving Europe". No one is trying to change physical geography! But leaving the EU (which is presumably what you meant) it would leave this country free to trade with the whole wide world and not just shelter in a little club of near neighbours.

I also notice that the only people who use the words "hate" and "foreigner" are propagandists for Remain, who don't seem to have any other weapons in their armoury of invective.

Posted 4 years ago #
Oxbridge

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'Do you honestly think you will get to decide the outcome?'

Um, yes, I do. The secret ballot system is foolproof, counting is done at multiple locations supervised by multiple people. It can be influenced by billionaires - mostly those owning papers, who are for Leave - but not bought.

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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People say that there is a duty to vote, but I think there is a duty to seriously consider the issues and if undecided to not bother.

Well expressed - thank you!

Whoever said that undecided people remain with the status quo are dead right-this applies to anything in life not just this election.

My opinion is just the opposite. As I have suggested elsewhere, 'Remain' is not really leaving us with the status quo. The whole of the EU and its structure is a brave experiment. The EU's aims, policies and directives are a constantly-changing work-in-progress and we will be required obediently to follow wherever this may lead.

Among other things, the EU has undecided and changing borders and undecided policies for determining these in future. It has unresolved problems with trying to make the Euro currency work for its impoverished member countries and undefined procedures for trying to dealing with these.

I find it highly significant that even the most ardent supporters of 'remain' are dissatisfied with the EU and its policies, and seek to change it. They believe (in my opinion quite wrongly) that we have more chance of bringing about changes if we remain 'in'. Experience (Cameron's and others) shows that this is naive - a triumph of hope over experience.

So apparently hardly anyone likes the EU as it is and nearly everyone (whether stayers or quitters) would prefer change. Frankly, if I was on a train which I thought was heading in the wrong direction, I wouldn't try to divert it; I'd get off.

So I regard regaining our independence as maintaining the status quo which this country has enjoyed and prospered under for centuries.

Posted 4 years ago #
S J Roe

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But younger voters do not even remember a time before the UK was in the EU. Joined 1973. A person born in, say, 1963, would not really be aware of any political changes really-just too young.

So a person in their early to mid fifties knows nothing else BUT life under the EU. For older people I can see that would still be seen as an experiment.

But status quo means what we have now-the way things are at present.

Posted 4 years ago #
101010

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So I regard regaining our independence as maintaining the status quo which this country has enjoyed and prospered under for centuries.

You mean, being ruled by the French. Or the Dutch. Or the Germans. Or...

Posted 4 years ago #
Spartacus

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I like the suggestion that people have done a lot of "research". Finding facts in amongst all the speculation, scare-mongering and outright lies is a very difficult thing to do.

I suspect what many people have actually done is find the first thing they could that reaffirmed their initial leanings and latched onto that, while dismissing any opposing "evidence" as being untrue.

Remember - if it's on the internet it must be true.

Posted 4 years ago #
throngsman

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To take one of Titus's later utterances first, the right to leave the EU is enshrined in its constitution (article 81 I think, but haven't checked), but there is no automatic right to rejoin regardless of what the Leave campaign suggests.

Going back to the original point of this thread I would offer the analogy of crossing the road. You can take your chance in front of speeding vehicles or you can continue on your current side until you find a safe crossing place. People make these choices all the time and I'm sure some of the idiots who hurl themselves in front of my car believe they have factored in all the variables, but personally I'm not that convinced. And of course most do cross the road in one piece and only occasionally does it result in tears. I would suggest many people actually don't know if they're making the right decision but run across/waste minutes looking for a safe crossing anyway. Curiously research suggests that we make safer choices individually and riskier ones in a group. That explains why every Daily Mail reader will vote exactly as told today.

To stretch the analogy, we're offered the chance today of crossing the M25 at its widest point (when it isn't functioning as a car park). Undecided doesn't mean clueless, Titus, it means you haven't got enough information to make a complete, rational and safe decision. I would suggest that actually incorporates everyone in the UK today, including the campaigners and those who believe they've researched the subject but in all reality have only accepted those reports that confirm their underlying beliefs. For example Dun Dunkin, Titus and his alter ego Sockpuppet. And to a degree the rest of us. So voting remain might not be the best choice in the final analysis, but it is certainly the safest. Should we still be in the EU tomorrow I would suggest Cameron points to how close it inevitably was and tells the EU we will repeat the exercise unless sensible dialogue takes place.

Posted 4 years ago #
Sinnick

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Wise words, throngs.

I certainly don't have the facts to hand, but I can see that change would have an unbelievably large pricetag nationally, corporately, individually, in public facilities, etc etc. Far more than the white elephant known as HS2. And for what? So Boris can further his career ?

Incidentally, the same argument applies if we were out & debating going in.

Posted 4 years ago #
deceangli

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SJ - I was born in 1962 and can vivdly recall the previous referendum. They didn't let me vote, obviously. Slightly surprised they let me vote now.

Posted 4 years ago #
Titus

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You can take your chance in front of speeding vehicles or you can continue on your current side until you find a safe crossing place.

False analogy. Staying in the EU isn't being static. Staying in is being swept along a road by the traffic when you don't know where the road leads and you can't control the speed you're travelling at. The 'safe' option in such circumstances is to stop travelling along the road and choose your own destination, route and speed.

Undecided doesn't mean clueless

Glad you realise this. Undecided means undecided. If I were undecided and genuinely couldn't decide which way to vote, I wouldn't vote, and I wouldn't feel guilty about not voting. I would feel far more guilty if I had flipped a coin and just cast a random vote because I felt 'I had to vote'.

Should we still be in the EU tomorrow I would suggest Cameron points to how close it inevitably was and tells the EU we will repeat the exercise unless sensible dialogue takes place.

An interesting thought. It will be fascinating to see if this is what he does.

Posted 4 years ago #

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